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 Templar Mysteries

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Red Don

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PostSubject: Templar Mysteries   Fri 04 Apr 2008, 6:29 am

There seems to be quite a few theories and mysteries involving the Knights Templars. These seem to revolve around missing treasure, secret artifacts in their possession (such as the Ark of the Covenant) and whether or not they still survive in one form or another today. Is it just a lot of people grasping for straws and making and linking unrelated events or is there something to what is being speculated? What do you think? Are there really any Templar Mysteries?
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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Fri 04 Apr 2008, 6:44 am

I think a lot of rubbish has been written about the Templars, most of which comes from later day groups attempting to strengthen their tenuous links to the order.

That said, it seems history now accepts that the Templars did partake in some rarther bizarre and secretive rituals, and it's certainly true that the Freemasons seem strangely obsessed with anything to do with Templar history. For example, why did they buy Guy's Cliffe near Coventry - a site with very strong links to the Templars and suggestions of buried treasure etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Fri 04 Apr 2008, 3:13 pm

In a recent FT there is an article saying that the Catholic Church has apologised for the wrongdoings towards the Templars.
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Mauro

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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Sat 05 Apr 2008, 12:58 am

I thought that at least the hidden treasure rumours were put to rest, given the fact that the order was supressed to allow the King of France and the Pope (both of which were sinking in debts) to seize any valuable asset. The legend of a hidden treasure probably stem from the fact that the enormous riches both these men were coveting turned out to be less substantial than expected.
The most rational explanation is that, of course, there wasn't so much physical money around in the XIV century (central banking hadn't been invented yet) and that the order had a least notion that something bad was going to happen so transferred both men and funds in other, safer European kingdoms (it's good to remember that Templar knights formed an important part of Robert the Bruce's cavalry at Bannockburn).

Most of the legends about Templars probably stem from "confessions" extracted under torture: the wild claims are consistent with the later Inquisition victims' stories of flying in the air on goats or summoning storms to ruin crops. This unashamed propaganda was probably implanted back at the time and sticked ever since, getting progressively wilder since no Templar was around to tell the truth.
The accusation to mebers of the Church of being pagans or in league with the Devil is very ancient indeed (it stems from pale-Christian times and the various campaign initiated against Marcion of Sinope and other "heretics") and even one of the most learned and intelligent men of the Middle Ages, Gerbert of Aurillac, that outstanding character later known as pope Sylvester II, was accused of being a sorcerer holding congresses with demons.
I won't even dig into the ridicolous Baphomet story, the fruit of torture, and other equally impossible wild claims.
As for the Ark of the Covenant, many have claimed to have found this most holy artifact over the course of the century. Suffice to say that while it's widely believed to have been lost when Babylonians sacked Jerusalem in 597 BC it was probably lost at a much earlier date. Little is known that Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark is based on the belief that the Ark was taken to Egypt when the Temple of Salomon was sacked by pharaoh Shostak (I hope I got it right) in 933 BC.
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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Sat 05 Apr 2008, 6:09 am

Quote :
In a recent FT there is an article saying that the Catholic Church has apologised for the wrongdoings towards the Templars.

Bit late for an apology Rolling Eyes

Didn't the Templars start as nine knights going to Jerusalem where they spent many years digging under the Temple of Solomon. They supposedely found something as they returned to Europe and gained all sorts of political power and with the Popes help the Templars were created as a major order. There is alegend about a missing Templar fleet that left La Rochelle just before the arrests in Paris and it has been suggested that this fled with the treasure. Maybe it did head to Scotland as Robert the Bruce had been excommunicated and was unlikely to obey any Papal orders regarding the Templars. Then again I beleive the English Templars got away quite lightly with a few house arrests. I have read that it is suspected that the Templars played a part at Bannockburn but who really knows. There is a story about the camp followers donning home made white uniforms and coming onto the field of battle to make the English think reinforcements had arrived. Was this the Templars? One reason I read for the persecution was that Philip was planning a crusade and for monetary and political reasons he decided to do away with one of the knightly orders and take their wealth to help fund it. As the Hospitalliers still had a base in the Med, which was either Rhodes or Malta at this point, the axe fell on the Templars.

Links with the Freemasons? I think there both Knights Templar and Knights of St John (Hospitalliers) in Freemasonry but I am unsure that it can claim any ancestry from the Templars. In fact I don't think the Freemasons do try to make this claim though it seems quite a popular idea.

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Turtlethrone

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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Sat 05 Apr 2008, 6:24 am

The origins of Freemasonry may be more Jewish in nature. I think it was in "The Magical Mason: Forgotten Hermetic Writings of William Wynn Wescott" (a member of the Golden Dawn and a Freemason), where he looked at the masonic ritual and noticed similarities with the Kabbalah. Then, looking at the certain penalties threatened for spilling their secrets and the fact they supposedly have a guard armed with a sword outside their meeting room, he suggests that maybe it's origins ly along the lines of people forced to practice the Jewish faith in secret, possibly due to persecution and it has had to change enough to disguise itself overtime, so much so that its current members don't recognise it as that. Obviously I don't know but it was an interesting article. I'll have to try and have a another look at it.
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Red Don

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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Sat 05 Apr 2008, 6:53 am

I found a website mentioning Guys Cliffe http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/corporate/tourism.nsf/Links/907487B8982EDB84802571BC003E3018 Maybe it should get a mention on the website.
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DJP

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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Sat 05 Apr 2008, 4:36 pm

I personally think that a lot of the modern concept of Templars is based on myth and romance. A secret society forcefully disbanded in a dramatic way 700 (and 1) years ago is bound to create a whole wealth of hearsay and legend. I am sure that they had secrets and mysteries but what they were we will probably never know. From my knowledge they were a military christian organisation created to protect pilgrims in the holy land. There is a book called the Rule of the Templars which lists their rules, it's quite boring - mostly practical rules for western military men in the Far East in the Middle Ages. I think you also have to look at the context and times they lived in, they would have been deeply religious and although exposed to alternative religious practices and beliefs I think most of the cross trampling stories, baphomet etc stem as Mauro says from torture confessions. I have heard of the great white host at Bannockburn, but again think this is legend. Robert the Bruce seems to have been tactical enough that day without the need for a troop of Templar knights (I could be wrong though). Also lot of money has been made by authors theorising about Templar secrets, and until the sacred head, ark, grail is discovered in a Templar vault we can only speculate.

It is intriguing though: anyway I am off to don my chainmail and white robes, sharpen my cruciform sword, cut a cross in my arm and look out that head of baphomet I have been meaning to worship. Must be the wine again. drunken
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Ian
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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Tue 08 Apr 2008, 6:29 am

Quote :
I think it was in "The Magical Mason: Forgotten Hermetic Writings of William Wynn Wescott"

I know the article your talking about Turtle. I think it was originally a lecture of some sort. Freemasons are not supposed to discuss religion or politics in open Lodge so I suppose issues like possible similarities to the Kabbalah are not discussed, just as the content of the ceremonies is kept a secret.

Unfortunately I cannot discuss any opinions I may have on the subject, as we keep the content of the ceremonies a secret silent

I dare say you'll be able to find them on the internet if you look though Smile

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Mauro

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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Wed 09 Apr 2008, 12:39 am

Ian wrote:
Quote :
In a recent FT there is an article saying that the Catholic Church has apologised for the wrongdoings towards the Templars.

Bit late for an apology Rolling Eyes

Didn't the Templars start as nine knights going to Jerusalem where they spent many years digging under the Temple of Solomon. They supposedely found something as they returned to Europe and gained all sorts of political power and with the Popes help the Templars were created as a major order. There is alegend about a missing Templar fleet that left La Rochelle just before the arrests in Paris and it has been suggested that this fled with the treasure. Maybe it did head to Scotland as Robert the Bruce had been excommunicated and was unlikely to obey any Papal orders regarding the Templars. Then again I beleive the English Templars got away quite lightly with a few house arrests. I have read that it is suspected that the Templars played a part at Bannockburn but who really knows. There is a story about the camp followers donning home made white uniforms and coming onto the field of battle to make the English think reinforcements had arrived. Was this the Templars? One reason I read for the persecution was that Philip was planning a crusade and for monetary and political reasons he decided to do away with one of the knightly orders and take their wealth to help fund it. As the Hospitalliers still had a base in the Med, which was either Rhodes or Malta at this point, the axe fell on the Templars.

Links with the Freemasons? I think there both Knights Templar and Knights of St John (Hospitalliers) in Freemasonry but I am unsure that it can claim any ancestry from the Templars. In fact I don't think the Freemasons do try to make this claim though it seems quite a popular idea.

The Templars presents at Bannockburn were an invaluable addition to Marshall Keith's small body of men-at-arms (five hundred lances, probably the largest such contingent ever put in the field by the kingdom) who charged and dispersed the English archers in the opening phases of the battle. Scotland had always been lamentably short on heavy cavalry and every single lance was welcome. The camp followers (defined by Charles Oman as "yeomen, swains and poveraille") were seized by enthusiasm when they saw the English line recoil under the impact of King Robert's own schiltron. Their sudden appearance was enough to convince the English infantry (which at the time was still more of a badly armed rabble than anything else) that they day was lost. In reality the Scottish host had already won the day and King Edward had already rode off the field with five hundred knights.
The Templars (as many other "military" orders like the Hospitaliers or the Order of Calatrava) always had a large military contingent of very competent and well equipped professional soldiers, among which men-at-arms were always prominent and their services were always sought by the usually impecunious kings of the time (since they didn't need to be paid).

That the Templars were accused of heresy and congressum cum daemonibus should not be surprising. The pilgrims had brought back from the East so many curious customs and so much alien knowledge (mainly from the Greeks) that the "mainstream" society had troubles adapting to it.
I have briefly looked into the matter of their archeaological finds during my lamentably short stay in the Holy Land but I have found very little hard evidence. During the late '80s the Israelis and the Jordanians had a campaign of digs under the Great Mosque, aimed exactly at finding out what went on under that most coveted parcel of land during the last three millennias. Sadly they didn't go that far since furious protests from Orthodox Jews stopped everything. A later campaign, conducted under cover of darkness and under the utmost secrecy by a small Israeli archeological team, was stopped dead by the same protestors and the archeologists even had to flee the angry mob under police protection. Not my idea of a relaxed working enviroment.
Even during my stay the tour guides were already mentioning the dark secrets of the Templars to thrilled crowds of tourists: I cannot imagine what they are telling right now.
I know that the general outline of the Templar buildings near the Great Mosque is pretty much well known thanks to studies sponsored in the past by the Jordanian government but very little has found its way outside of scholary literature. I also suspect that they may have conducted digs in the area during the recent past but keep the datas to themselves to avoid infuriating the Orthodox Jews any further...
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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Fri 25 Apr 2008, 3:22 am

I thought this was an interesting little article you may like to see.

http://www.geocities.com/vampiricstudies/knights.html

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DJP

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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Fri 25 Apr 2008, 9:18 am

Is there any historical evidence of Templars at Bannockburn, or any historical studies that give credence to the legend? I still find it unlikely but would like to know of any sources that mention them. Anybody know?

DJP
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Mauro

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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Sat 26 Apr 2008, 12:02 pm

DJP wrote:
Is there any historical evidence of Templars at Bannockburn, or any historical studies that give credence to the legend? I still find it unlikely but would like to know of any sources that mention them. Anybody know?

DJP

As much as I know the main source are the various versions of the Bruce Legend. They seem to be quite coherent on this point though it's probably better to be a bit careful since at least one version is an XVIII century fake and the others were probably altered during the course of the centuries. One contested version (since it's suspected of having been tampered with by Victorian-era Freemasons belonging to the Scottish Rite) even say that when the surviving knights in Scotland were summoned in 1309 by the Pope's emissary to be interrogated about their alleged heresy only two of them answered. The others all rode out to meet Robert the Bruce and swore allegiance to him. As I said this version is contested and not universally accepted.
There are a number of good contemporary authorities on Bannockburn: Barbour, the Scalachronica, the Bridlington Chronicle and the Vita Eduardi Secundi. If someone has access to any or all of them it would be a good idea to crosscheck the references.
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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Mon 28 Apr 2008, 1:30 am

Cheers Mauro
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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Fri 25 Jul 2008, 12:31 pm

It is believed that Rosslyn Chapel is the final resting place of Templar treasure or the Holy Grail. The chapel contains many Templar symbols within the masonry (such as two men riding a horse). The chapel also contains many Masonic symbols.
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agricola



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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Fri 25 Jul 2008, 5:41 pm

Dave wrote:
It is believed that Rosslyn Chapel is the final resting place of Templar treasure or the Holy Grail. The chapel contains many Templar symbols within the masonry (such as two men riding a horse). The chapel also contains many Masonic symbols.

Any sources for these assertions Dave? Having visited Rosslyn several times, I've seen relatively little Massonic symbolism. From what I'm aware, the treasure theory is something conjured up by moder writers. Surely if there were historic documents stating such a legend, they would have been investigated years ago?

I'm not even sure of the significance of two men on a horse for what are effectively stone cutters.
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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Thu 18 Sep 2008, 5:00 am

Regardless of the treasure existing or not, the fact that their
ships all left La Rochelle shortly before hand hints that someone may have
tipped the whole thing off. Further a large amount of Templar holdings
were in the form of land rights. Several kings, most notably Dinius the
Farmer of Portugal, managed to cheat the Pope and the Knights Hospitler by
claiming that the Templars had been holding the lands in trust from the King,
and then secularized the order.



Interesting note: I do believe that the Templars fleet went first to Ireland, to the
harbor of what is now Schull. Given the relatively short time span
involved, and the fact the fleet did not appear at any other location within a
few days sail would indicate that they moved to a safe port off continent. Mostly likely would be Schull, which was a heavily fortified harbor and in the hands of
the Mahoney clan, who were known to have ties to the Templars.



Where they might have gone from there is beyond the scope of my information.
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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Thu 18 Sep 2008, 6:31 am

Interesting theory - I'd like to believe that at least some of the Templars escaped, and Ireland certainly would be a logical location.
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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Fri 19 Sep 2008, 1:17 am

Eh, supposedly the all the Templar ships in France took off the day before the hammer came down on Jacques de Molay. And escape was actually probably not that uncommon. Several nations found them not guilty, if there were trials at all, including the few who were tried in Ireland, as I recall. Others simply folded Templar personel and holdings into secular and other religious orders - The Teutonic Knights, The Order of Christ, The Order of Montessa, The Knights of Malta, the Hospitilars, etc.

In reality, as I recall, only three of the Templars were actually found guilty of heresyby the Papal Inquirery, being the Grand Master and his two subordinates. They were required to publicly renounce thier heresy, however, they refuted thier guilt and were exicuted as relapsed heretics. What ever treasure they did have either fled with the fleet (which is what everyone talks about) or was seized by the Church and turned over to other Orders. Phillip The Fair actually managed to seize very little of thier property, and died within the year, anyway.

Conjecture: If the treasure did exist, and was with the fleet, what was it? Relics? Gold? According to archeologists, when examining the copper scroll, which lists the treasures of the Temple of Solomon, some digging was done at the sites mentioned. No gold was found, but many of them contained artefacts of the templars. This would suggest that the big mystery of what was found benieth the temple was not, in and of itself, gold, but rather knowlege, perhaps the 'silver scroll' mentioned in the copper scroll as being the other copy of this information. Even if they did infact, find nothing, the fact that they had been searching for it and had such a valuable guide might in and of itself attracted wealth to them, as kings and clergy wished to show thier piety by contributing to this endevor.

Several known relics are known to have at one point or other been in the care of the Knights, supposedly including the Shroud of Turin and the veil of Veronica.

As far as the treasures disposition afterward: I suggest that you turn your eyes to the Earl of Desmonds Rebellion in Ireland. If you look closely, you might observe serveral rather unusual events in southern Munster, particularly on the part of those same Mahoney's who controlled Schull at the time of the Templar's dissolution. I belive that the key lies not in a vault in Rosslyn, but at the bottom of the sea off the Munster coast, thanks in part to the English navy.
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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Fri 19 Sep 2008, 2:37 am

baroniveagh wrote:
Conjecture: If the treasure did exist, and was with the fleet, what was it? Relics? Gold? According to archeologists, when examining the copper scroll, which lists the treasures of the Temple of Solomon, some digging was done at the sites mentioned. No gold was found, but many of them contained artefacts of the templars. This would suggest that the big mystery of what was found benieth the temple was not, in and of itself, gold, but rather knowlege, perhaps the 'silver scroll' mentioned in the copper scroll as being the other copy of this information. Even if they did infact, find nothing, the fact that they had been searching for it and had such a valuable guide might in and of itself attracted wealth to them, as kings and clergy wished to show thier piety by contributing to this endevor.

Several known relics are known to have at one point or other been in the care of the Knights, supposedly including the Shroud of Turin and the veil of Veronica.

As far as the treasures disposition afterward: I suggest that you turn your eyes to the Earl of Desmonds Rebellion in Ireland. If you look closely, you might observe serveral rather unusual events in southern Munster, particularly on the part of those same Mahoney's who controlled Schull at the time of the Templar's dissolution. I belive that the key lies not in a vault in Rosslyn, but at the bottom of the sea off the Munster coast, thanks in part to the English navy.

I think you need to do a bit more research. There has never been any excavations within the Temple, and certainly nothing in the immediate area which has found any artefacts linked to the Knights Templar. Also, there is no evidence that the Turin Shroud, or any other Christ-linked artefact has ben in their posession. Any claims by authors are purely speculation.
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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Fri 19 Sep 2008, 3:05 am

agricola wrote:
I think you need to do a bit more research. There has never been any excavations within the Temple, and certainly nothing in the immediate area which has found any artefacts linked to the Knights Templar. Also, there is no evidence that the Turin Shroud, or any other Christ-linked artefact has ben in their posession. Any claims by authors are purely speculation.

The copper scroll contains sites where the treasures of the Temple were hidden, not the site of the Temple itself. Though some are vague or point to landmarks well known then that time has washed away, some were identifiable. I did not say that there had been modern digging on the Temple Mount. (The shooting war which would erupt at the dig site would have ruined any artifacts found.)

I might find it unusual that no artifacts of the Templars might be found there on the mount, as I seem to recall them being based in the then captured Al Aqsa Mosque. That no one dug anywhere at the time is also absurd as the mosque underwent several structural changes during it's occupation. One would, in theory, have to dig to lay foundations for the western and eastern annexes for the building, for example. I do not find it far fetched that in the process, someone might have uncovered a stash of scrolls similar to the dead sea scrolls.

I might point out that the Shroud of Turin was put on display originally by the grandson of one of Templar Grand Master Jaques de Molay's co defendants at his heresy trial.
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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Fri 19 Sep 2008, 4:22 am

Again, you need to do some basic research. There's no evidence that the copper scroll is even anything to do with the Temple.

Plus, there have been very few excavations over time. Some limited exploration was undertaken by Charles Warren in the mid 1860s, but nothing of note was found.

Also, it is highly unlikely that anything like the DSS would be found in Jerusalem as the climate is far too humid compared to the area around the Jordanian border/Dead Sea and the parchment wouldn't last several thousand years. Also current theories indicate that the DSS were written by residents of the Dead Sea area, so why would scrolls be taken to Jerusalem?

As for the Turin Shroud, just because the grandson of a codefendant of a Grand Master produces it in evidence, does not mean it was in the posession of the Templars, merely a friend of a friend. Incidentally I've been unable to find any evidence of this. I do seem to recall reading that the Templar link has been speculation from some 'historians' and primarily based on surname links, dubious in itself.
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PostSubject: Re: Templar Mysteries   Fri 19 Sep 2008, 5:46 am

I dunno, McCarter's work states that it contains references to the House of Hakkoz, who, if I remember my bible correctly were the Treasurers of the Second Temple, would strongly link it to the Temple.

As far as something like the Dead Sea scrolls lasting until now in that area, probably not, but shave off the thousand years between us and Hugh De Payne and it's more likely, particularly if the jars seals remained intact.

Geoffroi de Charny (who was a fairly famous French knight of the Hundred Years War) and Geoffroy de Charnay (The preceptor of Normandy for the Templars) being Grandfather and Grandson wouldn't seem that far fetched to me. Actually Occam's razor would suggest that two famous knights with the same name from the same region within a short span of time might be related.
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