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 UFO "flap" over Britain

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matt.h



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PostSubject: Re: UFO "flap" over Britain   Wed 02 Jul 2008, 1:24 pm

Surely in staged incidents there's a great deal of expectation and awareness of the pressure to remember details that does not exist in non-staged incidents. How have the staged incidents you refer to accounted for this?
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mysteryshopper



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PostSubject: Re: UFO "flap" over Britain   Wed 02 Jul 2008, 2:19 pm

The staged incidents were not announced in advance. In one example, people were expecting a lecture when suddenly an 'argument' broke out involving the lecturer. It had the appearance of a genuine dispute. The audience would, therefore, have assumed it was a real, if unwelcome, unexpected incident. As such, I think they are a fair reflection of coming across an unexpected incident in real life. Only once the lecture began did they realise they were expected to recall the incident.
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Mauro



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PostSubject: Re: UFO "flap" over Britain   Wed 02 Jul 2008, 2:48 pm

The "staged" explanation is very intriguing. It's the most likely explanation for the Rendlesham case (I plan to write something on the matter as soon as I can gather the time to crosscheck references): a staged accident to observe the psychological reactions of the persons involved. Similar accidents were reported from the USSR (the Voronezh "flap" in 1989) and Spain (the "UMMO affair" in 1966). While it's hard to find confirmation in the official documentation all the evidences point in that direction.
You talked about psychology, and you may be right. In some cases it appears as the UFO (or whatever you like to call it) is able to alter the witness(es) perception of reality, and that may be the final key to unlock the chest.

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matt.h



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PostSubject: Re: UFO "flap" over Britain   Wed 02 Jul 2008, 4:02 pm

There's also the issue of archetypal elements to sightings. This doesn't mean it's not "all in the mind", but suggests there may be something beyond faulty memory and pure imagination at work in some cases. Why, for example, do many UFO abduction stories seem to correlate with earlier fairy tales?
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mysteryshopper



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PostSubject: Re: UFO "flap" over Britain   Wed 02 Jul 2008, 5:22 pm

Another point about one off, single witness UFO sightings is, WHY is there only one witness? If a UFO is big and obvious and flying low over a populated area, it ought to generate many reports. When you get just one, with no other evidence apart from a witness statement, it would be unwise to let it carry too much weight in proposing theories beyond current science. Misperception or hallucination would be difficult to dismiss in such cases.
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Mauro



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PostSubject: Re: UFO "flap" over Britain   Thu 03 Jul 2008, 5:05 pm

Well, the problem is that UFOs seem to prefer scarcely populated areas. I like to think that there's some kind of twisted humour on their part.
There have been a few sightings over highly populated areas and all of these have a good number of witnesses, though most of them have no time or do not care about what they saw. The only sighting I had happened in a village in the Alps and there were quite a few witnesses apart from myself.
Personally I have always favored the physical explanation (be it a cloud, an airplane or an unknown physical phenomenon) over the hallucination: in the second case we can enter a Matrix-like scenario when everything, and I mean everything, can be questioned. We could end up like that old paradox according to which our reality is just a dream in the mind of God and God is just a dream in the mind of an higher intelligence and so on.
I agree with you that some cases have a psychological basis (for example a part of the better-left-alone area of "alien abductions") but how about the cases where physical traces are involved? How about the photographs? How about the "simple witnesses" who do not claim fantastic experiences but simply seeing "something in the sky" once in their lifetime? Something physical, be it known or unknown, must be involved.

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mysteryshopper



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PostSubject: Re: UFO "flap" over Britain   Thu 03 Jul 2008, 6:48 pm

I'm not really talking about psychology here, more neuroscience. It has recently been discovered that our brains routinely 'substitute' objects we don't see well with things from our memory. See http://www.assap.org/newsite/articles/Misperception.html for more info. The substitution takes place BEFORE we are consciously aware of it, so we see it as completely real. The problem is particular acute in peripheral and night vision (see
http://www.assap.org/newsite/articles/Corner%20eye%20phenomena.html).

It doesn't mean that we all go round seeing imaginery things all the time. However, it does mean that sometimes, when we see things poorly, particularly if we are not familiar with them, our brains can alter bits of our visual field, without our being consciously aware of it. Such misperceptions combine a real physical object (balloon, plane, cloud, satellite, whatever) with an element of hallucination (in that people don't see things as they really are). Such misperception would certainly cover many 'simple witness' light in the sky cases. So it is not a question of hallucination versus physical stimulus - misperception combines both. Nor is it anything to do with psychology, as such. We all misperceive from time to time.

I have examined many UFO photos and not seen any that weren't reasonably easy to explain by natural causes. I've never examined any physical traces though I've not heard any convincing reports about them.

I think all anomaly researchers need to look into neuroscience urgently. Recent developments are completely changing our whole view of perception and how it drastically affects witness reports.
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matt.h



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PostSubject: Re: UFO "flap" over Britain   Fri 04 Jul 2008, 1:06 pm

One problem with UFO/alien reports and pictures is that we're dealing with a patchwork of different possible causes and motives under the same umbrella.

Is there any persuasive evidence to show that sightings of UFO's in the sky can be linked to abduction reports? To my mind, it's largely our own cultural expectations that make the link between phenomena like this. A century or more ago, if you were abducted by a green man, shown their secret abode and plonked back with no time having elapsed you would assume you'd been taken by the fairies. If you consequently saw strange bright lights in the sky you wouldn't assume it was the fairies coming back for you. Nowadays we'd report it all as an alien abduction.

The same may be said for ghosts and the like - our historicised view of hauntings is a fairly recent development.
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mysteryshopper



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PostSubject: Re: UFO "flap" over Britain   Fri 04 Jul 2008, 1:29 pm

I like the 'big picture' approach that you're suggesting.

For instance, if we really are being visited by extra-terrestrials, a useful test could be devised to prove it. They should tell us one unknown scientific fact that we could verify.

There is still the remote possibility that the 'fact' may have come from the mind of the witness relaying the message, who just happens to be a brilliant, insightful scientist. On the whole, though, it's unlikely.

Most of the 'messages' supposedly from extra-terrestrials tell us stuff we already know, like we're messing up the planet. If they could tell us where to find a new moon of Neptune, that would be more useful.
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matt.h



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PostSubject: Re: UFO "flap" over Britain   Fri 04 Jul 2008, 10:56 pm

There's certainly a marked cultural influence on reports throughout the gamut of paranormal phenomena. To my mind, the big question is why humans have had "otherworldly" experiences - regardless of era - that have intriguingly consistent aspects. For example, there are apparent links between fairies and aliens in both the "green" aspect and behaviour. This isn't really new thinking but it's a very important thing to consider, both in terms of our internal machinations and possible external factors.
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Mauro



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PostSubject: Re: UFO "flap" over Britain   Fri 04 Jul 2008, 11:41 pm

To be honest I do not trust neuroscience that much. It always ends up with the usual theme of reality manipulation/substitution of reality which to me looks like a giant headsplitting version of The Matrix ("reality is just electrical and chemical impulses stimulating the brain" fair enough for me but we'd better be careful not to get entangled in very long and sterile debates). If we start question what look anomalous, why not question what looks normal? That's always the danger with using neuroscience and psychology (for which I have absolutely no sympathy, but that's a personal matter), as well as denying us the opportunity to study and understand physical phenomena, which are undoubtely part of the whole scene.

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Ian
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PostSubject: Re: UFO "flap" over Britain   Sat 05 Jul 2008, 1:01 pm

When is a UFO not a UFO........when it is the Moon. Check this out Very Happy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7489457.stm

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DJP



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PostSubject: Re: UFO "flap" over Britain   Sat 05 Jul 2008, 11:15 pm

Quote:
To my mind, the big question is why humans have had "otherworldly" experiences - regardless of era - that have intriguingly consistent aspects. For example, there are apparent links between fairies and aliens in both the "green" aspect and behaviour. This isn't really new thinking but it's a very important thing to consider, both in terms of our internal machinations and possible external factors.


I think this is an important factor brought up by Matt, about similar aspects of experience regardless of belief/time frame. The link between fairy experiences and UFO abductions is an old one but is not much discussed.

I read a book recently by Graham Hancock called Supernatural. I know he is an author who writes from the genre of psuedo science and mystery, but, this book was interesting as it mentioned shared experiences when under the influence of mind altering plant hallucinogens used by old world shamans, these were similar to shared shamanistic visions but he also experiences UFO type experiences, I was wondering if anybody had read it and had any comments on it as it is food for thought on many things that are discussed within this area, although it is a long read and not easy to condense some of his ideas here. i.e. you would have had to have read it to comment.
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mysteryshopper



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PostSubject: Re: UFO "flap" over Britain   Sun 06 Jul 2008, 6:45 pm

Mauro wrote:
To be honest I do not trust neuroscience that much.


I don't understand how you can 'not trust' neuroscience. It is reproducible, testable science like physics, astronomy, geology etc (unlike psychology, for instance, where results aren't always so easily reproducible). You can go into a laboratory and test it for yourself.

You can't pick which bits of science you trust and which you don't. Many people are uncomfortable with quantum physics (Einstein never liked it) but experiments keep proving it correct. Psychology can seem a bit imprecise because it describes human behaviour, which is highly variable. Neuroscience, on the other hand, is about how the brain works. Everyone's amygdala does the same thing irrespective of their personality (unless they're ill). Similarly, everyone's visual perception works in the same basic way (including substituting objects for things from memory when they're not seen well).

Quote:
If we start question what look anomalous, why not question what looks normal?


Absolutely! People see things that are 'not really there' all the time but only a few report them as anomalous phenomena. That's because most of the time we just don't notice or, if we do, put it down to 'just one of those things' or too many beers. It is often quoted that 90% of paranormal cases (or some other arbitrary high figure) turn out to have natural causes. Things like misperception may account for a large part of those cases. How can we ignore what is likely to be the biggest single cause of paranormal reports?
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Mauro



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PostSubject: Re: UFO "flap" over Britain   Sun 13 Jul 2008, 8:32 pm

Did I miss anything?
Sorry for the disappearance but there are times when a man... has no time for "surfing the Web".
Still not convinced about neuroscience and, possibly, will never be. To be honest it seems that ever since finishing university I have been steadily losing faith in pretty much all areas of science (or perhaps I am losing faith in the persons using them).

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